>> Saturday, August 16, 2008 <<


Testing this out

Here goes nothin'

posted by Michael Kimmel at

17 Comments:
Blogger Michael Kimmel said...

Testing 1,2,3. And then I thought that I would test a longer comment so I typed a longer comment to test the layout of the comments.

August 17, 2008 1:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for writing a book about us.

‘Feminism will make it possible for the first time for men to be free’.

You know what? Feminism has in fact freed myself and other (young) men.

As you, Dr Kimmel, understand full well, the sexual revolution has freed men. It decoupled sexual access to women from wider expectations of marriage. The sexual revolution even decoupled sex from expectations of having relationships with women.

Hey, pretty damn good, right?

At the same time that sex became more abundant, responsibilities like marriage and family have become pretty negative things for a man to get involved in. Every guy knows *exactly* what I mean.

Thank you again for writing a book about us. However, don't imagine young men are going to 'grow up', and 'change' just to please the older people, or for our female peers.

This, this 'Guyland', is permanent. This is our wider culture now.

Like us guys, women can go get their degrees all they want. 'Yay' for them. We aren't impressed. We aren't marrying you. Ten years from now will exist a Bridget Jones situation writ-large.

In closing, if you want us to change, can anyone offer guys something 'better' than what we have now?

Can you actually top: 'Free (freaky) sex, endless entertainment, with zero responsibilities'?

Yours respectfully,

Mr Gen Y Esquire (calling long-distance, from Guyland)

September 11, 2008 6:57 AM  
Anonymous Girls will always have the last laugh said...

Ummm to Mr Gen Y Esquire, we're all thrilled with your newfound freedom from traditional gender roles (hey, we love OUR freedom too, so we understand where you're coming from), and we women (from over the sexual divide) wish you well in your self absorbed, selfish, niche you've created for yourselves, but the statistics on marriage would prove you wrong, *conclusively*. Many of you guys are still getting married, many of you are still having kids.

The thing is, women will still want to have babies, and the difference between the last generation and the next, is that many of us will choose to have them with or without your moral, emotional support. And if you choose not to be a part of the consequences of sex, you will still have a financial obligation, which the state will be under more and more pressure to enforce.

So I suggest you all go out and get yourselves the snip-snip and be careful what you do with your sperm, as that girl you had all that casual no-strings attached sex with will get tired of waiting for you to grow up, and you will be forced into adulthood where you will be FORCED to take the financial reponsibility for parenthood (what is it, 18 years worth of child-payments) and yet get none of the emotional or other benefits. And you will get to a stage where you are old, ugly and no girl in their right mind will want to have sex with you, and you will be all alone with your blue balls, eating out of a can of baked beans in your sad little apartments playing your sad little video games. Your kids, if they ever bother to find out who you are will end up hating you, and us women who reaped the benefit of having casual sex with you (ie. your sperm, because I'm sure there was no other benefit like an actual orgasm) will be surrounded and cared for by loved ones.

So you see, Mr Gen Y, if you choose not to grow up, you are actually choosing emotionally stunted, lives where you have a sexual-attractiveness lifespan of maybe 10-15 years before the girls of your generation get fed up being used and utilise your sperm to create a wonderful family life without having anything to do with you except the alimony they can extract from you.

I know of heaps of guys who have been trapped into an unwanted pregnancy through their own stupidity/selfishness, but who are powerless to do anything about it. Don't say it couldn't ever happen to you. And if you are the sort of guy who uses girls fr sex, all I can say is, you will have had it coming, and sucked in, and have a lousy life. Loser.

Enjoy the free sex while it lasts, because it won't last forever and then all you'll have in life is your tin of baked beans and your memories of conquest. You know not what a crappy life you are setting yourself up for. We girls will indeed have the last laugh. (oh, and I forgot to mention, we have vibrators, so all we need you men for is the sperm from a 'casual' one night stand. As if there was ever anything such as casual sex. You boys are so stupid.

September 28, 2008 2:19 AM  
Anonymous girls will always have the last laugh said...

Oh, By the way Dr Kimmel, just wanted to say, I haven't yet read your book but from what I have heard, I love your work, and kudos to you for writing about the current generation of young guys. I think many of them will grow up, and experience karma when they have teenage daughters themselves (one can hope, assuming they actually have a shred of humanity), but there is a % of them that will be forever lost to society, and to themselves, trapped in a damaging cage of 'masculinity' that many of them don't have the bravery, courage or intelligence to break out of.

I am all for a 'masculinist' revolution - go the mens movement (yay) lets hope the end result is a style of man which is more human.

September 28, 2008 2:36 AM  
Blogger Amy said...

Dr. Kimmel - I hope you'll come back to the blogosphere and use this as a discussion forum. I'm reading your book now, and there is much to discuss.

November 17, 2008 9:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why can't people accept that the world is changing and that perhaps this is not a case of boys not wanting to become men, but of a change in the very concept of what the point of living is. The idea that we all live in order to satisfy some higher cause, be it raising children or satisfying societies expectations of career and wealth accumulation, is about as relevant today as the idea that god wants us to reproduce and the notion that the sole purpose of this life is securing a good spot in the next. Why shouldn't people live their lives in order to maximize their own happiness. And if that means sitting on one's couch playing video games or living in their parents' basement until they're 50 then who are we to judge? And if womens' desires for motherhood don't mesh with mens' then women should go about having kids on their own. What was the point of the whole women's movement and their decades-old fight to gain equality if not to break the tradition reliance of women on men and, in so doing, the need for men. I think it's time to re-captionize the image of the woman dragging to the alter the poor, ignorant man who does not know what's best for himself from "doing the right thing" to just "giving in". As a straight man in his late 30s I see a huge appeal in the gay lifestyle simply because it allows men to do what makes them happy, free from expectation and guilt. So the next time a woman laments "why are all the smart, together men gay" you can tell them it's precisely because they are smart and together.

January 14, 2009 12:18 PM  
Blogger Shaun said...

I listened to your interview on Q, talking about "bromance", and it reminded me very much of Lilian Faderman's work on romantic friendships between women: Surpassing the Love of Men: Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present (1981)
She argues that romantic friendships between women was a form of intimate female relationship that persisted for hundreds of years, but in the late 20th century it was eventually replaced with more sexually focused lesbian relationships. In other words, romantic friendships became the cultural precursor to contemporary lesbianism. Now I know this sounds all kinds of alarm bells and straight guys want to have their "best buddies" and still be considered straight. But do you think it's possible that "bromance" is another form of proto-homosexual relationship that will eventually become sexually focused long-term partnerships between men?

January 14, 2009 12:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guyland is an interesting concept, like Ladder Theory. Which brings up the question, just what percentage of guys are really in Guyland? Colleges are only 40% male and they seem to be the incubator for Guyland guys. You can find anecdotal evidence of anything, but the world is full of situations where people say "everybody" is doing it. Anyway, if you really want to see Guyland, I imagine you should go to China and India. Because of selective abortion, they both have way more guys than girls.

January 29, 2009 9:24 PM  
Anonymous Klynch said...

No one here has noted the larger biological context and consequence of Guyland; through natural selection (via the wonders of birth control) the boys who are not participating in mainstream society, and whom opt not to procreate, could eventually be 'bred out'of society. Their genes will simply no longer be swimming in the same pool.

This raises the point, since young women are able to have and raise children on their own, perhaps they also need to think about the consequences of the type of 'donor' they are mating with, and become more selective in terms of the attributes they wish to manifest in their offspring.

February 17, 2009 11:58 AM  
Anonymous All Bull Aside... said...

This isn't even about men procreating or fulfilling those expectations society has for them. What I focus on when thinking about this subject is what the men in this situation feel. Who are they? They are defined by how they, not by who they are. But I can assure that these guys have no idea of who they are since they are so involved in this culture. If they did they’d leave “Guyland.” These poor men are a product of the "boys will be boys" culture of society characterizing men as boys now and forever (the idea that even a grown man will always be a “boy”) and men following that thought pattern that society has created.

I do feel sad for these men who day in and day out live in this world of competition for the manliest and their search for ass. It is common knowledge that men seek the approval of women in their relationships. Who gives these guys approval, the other "guys" who are competing for their "guy" status? I doubt it.

As I said, this isnt about procreating, feminism, or about how much cooler women or men are compared to the other. This is about the individuals. These cyclical, non-productive activities lead nowhere, and the sense of not being productive leads to low self-esteem.

Men can get as defensive as they wish about this subject and bash women and defend this lifestyle, but the truth of the matter is that it exists -here or in China. And they say that half the work is done by realizing one’s issues; people who accept their problem are the only ones who can change. Change for their own benefit, not for women or for society or for church, or whomever. What do these guys want? Is this lifestyle really fulfilling their desires? When they’re on their deathbeds they’re going to say “I lived a productive and full life”? Really? Or is that all these men want? Porn, food, sex, videogames and no responsibility? How self-empowering...

As a girl, I dont judge men who decide to live like this. I live at a college that is considered a “party school” I too, live in “guyland.” I believe everyone makes the choices they want in their lives. But natural selection happens every day in all species including ours, and humans aren’t loners. Humans need other human contact and interactions. I want to have a partner with whom to share my life, and to procreate and have lots of sex and have fun and travel and someone with whom I can create a high-quality lifestyle, etc. Because of this, I wouldn’t consider a man from the "Guyland" pool as an option.

It must be a lonely life for men who find themselves in this situation. I’m not a guy but only with general knowledge of humans one can only guess that men have emotional needs as well, and they too seek a partner. Someone to care for them and make sure they eat well, and have clean socks and someone to come home to and spend some time with even if she is sleeping when he plays videogames in bed late at night. I can’t imagine that the "Guyland" lifestyle can be fulfilling for anyone.

February 23, 2009 2:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Life goes on. Even if the Guyland phase takes 20 years or 30 years, the time has passed. If it were some small number of men, then the world could probably take note, try to help, but generally not worry too much about it. The problem is that it seems to be large numbers of men. Those 10 years are kind of wasted. As many have observed, males in our society generally don't seem to be doing too well. Only 40% of college students today are male. Many more females are graduating high school than males. So the question is what, if anything, can be done about it? Or, as many of the Guyland guys seem to maintain, should we all just mind our own business? Just wondering.

March 8, 2009 9:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Kimmel I love your work! I think that "guyland" begins earlier in the life of boys. Back in high school or middle school my "boy" friends would plop in front of the tv playing their zelda or grand theft auto. Somehow guys from a young age are already in training for their "teenage wasteland". Meaning that guys lose themselves in video games, tv, sports, porn, girlfriends, etc. And somehow its become more a way of life for guys to just be a couch potato and hang out with their buds in the basement. That's how it gets carried on through their twenties when they are in college. But in college they take wrong turns and lose themselves in an abyss of beer pong, kegs, and all night party fests on wet campuses. So then I ask the question why would men want to marry, settle down and grow up? when on campus everything is right at their feet, they don't need to go out to meet girls, or leave campus for a drink. e.g. fraternities.

Guys have different perceptions of what becoming an adult means. So maybe in the guys world it is just being a guy and enjoying their life with their friends and going out and getting completely smashed before they eventually take that next step and settle down.

But I think that "guyland" occurs with most young college students. Students who are in denial about their life or future. Or are avoiding their priorities in life. I think that it's most common in people ages 18-30. Because now students don't have to immediately decide on their major they can go to school and think about what they want to major in for at least two years. So, I think its common that young men are still stuck in their adolesence because its fun and simple. Now I am not saying all men are like this, just a small %.

March 10, 2009 1:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guyland is a reaction to sexual freedom, now mind you I don't say sexual equality.

The freeing of women's sexuality has done a lot to empower them, but it would do substantially more if they actually made use of it. Despite the percieved equality most women still act as a prize/reward/goal etc in the dating/mating world. They wait for the guys to come to them and choose from the suitors that presented themselves.
This is what empowers Guyland, not sexual freedom but freedom attached to still submissive behaviour.

Not all bold men are jerks, but all jerks are bold, more often than not if a woman waits for a bold man it will be a jerk. If a woman takes initiative to find her own mate and actively hunt and pursue a man who has these traits they would be rewarded and encouraged. Instead dominant sexual behaviour of men like those in Guyland wins the day even more now than before, guys with more appropriate behavioural traits actually struggle more in the modern environment.

Guyland is a natural reaction to the current state of human mating affairs. Women have freed their bodies but they still act as prey instead of embracing the role of mutual hunters.

This isn't the only variable but it is one so key that removing it would seriously damage the foundations of Guyland

March 24, 2009 2:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The new Star Trek movie is coming out soon. Star Trek is Guyland. How many women did Captain Kirk have? He got married on occasion, but the wife didn't survive the episode. Then there was Star Trek: The Next Generation. In The Inner Light, Picard said that he never felt he needed children in his life. After decades in the fantasy world, he said that he didn't know how he ever lived without them. During the basic run of the show, all of the characters are single. They all had their own rooms. Didn't they ever get lonely?

May 1, 2009 10:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish that all the explorations into the Great Male Decline wouldn't keep using video games as examples. Boyhood interests, boyhood friendships, these things are potentially good ways of engaging in friendships with other men. There is nothing wrong with staying fluent in boyhood. It reminds one of the outrage over comics in the 50s; now they're winning pulitzers. And surprise surprise, women dominate the casual video game market - women OVER 35.

October 14, 2009 12:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And ps: I'm a straight, married, female academic, mother of two. Don't make assumptions!

October 14, 2009 12:52 PM  
Anonymous Karlito said...

google search "mark driscoll marriage and men" listen for an hour and repent

October 29, 2009 8:20 AM  

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